Month: July 2005

  • D.G. Hart on evangelicals and "liturgicals" in the public square

    Found this article by church historian D.G. Hart on different strands of Protestantism in American history and how they relate faith to politics.

    The most important distinction here, accordign to Hart, is between pietistic evangelicals and what he calls “liturgicals.” Pietists deemphasize the institutional church, the sacraments, etc. and focus on individual conversion resulting in a transformed life. Since merely belonging to the visible church and receiving the sacraments was no proof that one was truly converted, an activist outlook was encouraged to supply such evidence. But since the church tends to fall out of the picture as the vehicle of God’s inbreaking kingdom, American evangelicals have often turned their attention to the nation as a whole as the place where God’s kingdom is to be realized. The emphasis sometimes falls on personal holiness and other times on social reform, but the main point is to remake the world.

    In this sense Hart sees 19th century evangelical reform movements such as Prohibition as part of the same tradition as modern evangleical politics whether of the Right (Fallwell, Robertson) or the Left (Wallis, Sider, Campolo). They all share an emphasis on activism and making more godly according to a certain biblical pattern.

    By contrast, says Hart, liturgicals (Episcopalians, Lutherans, some strands of Presbyterianism) are heirs to a different style of piety and, correspondingly, a different style of politics:

    These churchly Protestants held to an organic conception of religious life that was corporate in its piety in contrast to evangelicalism’s individualism, sacramental as opposed to conversionist, and sober about human progress in contrast to revivalism’s optimistic millennialism. … In contrast to evangelical piety, which was individualistic and experiential, liturgical spirituality was decidedly churchly and sacramental. The church, they believed, was a place for assisting members in their pilgrimage from birth, confirmation, marriage, child-rearing, and vocation to death. Clergy ministered chiefly through the means of grace, namely, word and sacraments, and these rites strengthened the faith of members as they looked for the world to come. In other words, the church was not an agency for social reform or nation-building, nor was faith a means for making good workers. Instead, the church was a spiritual institution with sacramental means for otherworldly ends. In today’s vernacular, liturgical Protestantism was a private religion; revivalistic Protestantism was its public alternative.

    Liturgicals tend to adopt some version of Luther’s “two kingdoms” doctine. The church was the primary locus of God’s inbreaking kingdom, embodied in the preaching of the Gospel and the administering of the sacraments. Society at large, while ultimately under God’s providential guidance, was not to be identified with the Kingdom. “This teaching,” Hart says, “nurtured skepticism about political life that made liturgicals wary of pinning their hopes on the United States or thinking America had a special place in God’s redemptive plan. The church, not the state, was the kingdom of God and efforts to make the state conform to the church always confused the ends of the church and politics.”

    This didn’t prevent liturgicals from engaging in public life however. In the 19th century, for instance, evangelicals adopted Whiggery and supported the Republican Party and its various programs of social reform while liturgical Protestants (as well as Catholics) flocked to the Democratic Party, which, at the time, stood for limited, populist government. While evangelicals wanted to use the state as an instrument of godly social reform, the liturgicals sought “insurance that the state would not encroach on their churches, parochial schools, or the lives of their members.”

    Hart says that liturgicals were less inclined than their evangelical brethren to simply read the Bible as a set of prescriptions for remaking the social order:

    [L]iturgicals tended to steer clear of the biblicistic moralism that informed so much of evangelical Protestantism’s political philosophy. Because the kingdom of God was different from the kingdom of man, the Bible was not a rule for political life. God’s special revelation, from the liturgical perspective, was for the church. The norm for the state came from patterns revealed in creation and human nature, that is, general revelation. Indeed, because liturgicals recognized the revelatory character of creation and providence, they could accept arguments for the common good drawn from the wisdom and observations available to all people. In other words, while evangelicals looked to the Bible for standards of public decency and patterns of just rule (an outlook that invites making Old Testament Israel the model for good government), liturgicals believed that the ideals for politics were not so specific or explicitly Christian. Consequently, while evangelicals sought a Christian America, liturgicals desired an America where Christians could practice their faith, a position that made them willing to accept religious diversity.

    Hart thinks that this makes the liturgical tradtion more compatible with secular modernity and the pluralism that goes along with it. He is careful to note that “secular” here does not mean “irreligious.” Rather, secular should be thought of, not as the opposite of sacred, but as the opposite of eternal. In other words, the secular deals with “this age” while the eternal deals with “the age to come.”

    From this perspective, secular government is not irreligious since all legitimate authority comes from God. Rather, what makes government secular is its temporary and provisional character–it rules during this age but not for eternity. Obviously such an understanding of secular politics fits well with liturgical Protestant otherworldly piety. The goal of history is the age to come, and in the new heavens and new earth government will no longer be needed to restrain evil and supply order. This understanding of the end of history allows liturgicals to accept the kind of differentiation that accompanies modernization as part of the provisional character of life on earth. Put simply, for liturgicals secularization is not a threat; it is simply a way of ordering the world until the second advent.

    The liturgical tradition, he contends, provides a better model for Christian engagement with politics than the evangelical-pietist Christian Right (or Left):

    If Protestant liturgicals actually represent a viable way for conservative believers to participate in public life, they may also provide an escape from the impasse that has bedeviled recent discussions about the relationship between religion and civil society. Ever since 1980 when the religious right emerged as factor in electoral politics, the typical approach to religion and public life assumed a bipolar perspective. Either the public square welcomes or excludes religion; either religious convictions are private or they legitimately inform the aspirations that guide public life. In other words, no middle ground exists. If evangelicals are going to participate meaningfully in public life, the wall between church and state has to come down. Or, at least, some gates have to be added to allow for passage back and forth. In this way of looking at the problem, the religious right and secularists are made for each other. As much as evangelicals try to say all areas of life belong to God and so religion should not be excluded from public affairs, secularists see that such divine possession can likely end up dispossessing those who do not believe in the deity of evangelical Protestantism. Of course, this is not the first time such an impasse has arisen. The bipolar character of most discussions about religion and public life is the legacy of Anglo-American Protestantism’s political philosophy. Ever since the heady days of the American republic’s birth, when the United States tried to live without the older authorities of monarchy and established church, evangelicals have operated according to a simple political formula–if it is divine it is trustworthy, if it is human it is suspect. Though responsibilities as presidents, chemists, parents and umpires have forced evangelicals to modify this formula, it still lurks within the evangelical soul and plays havoc with Protestant efforts to relate their religious convictions to non-religious walks of life.

    Liturgical Protestantism offers a way around this impasse. A different way of putting it is to say that liturgical Protestantism represents a way for Protestant believers to support the wall between church and state. By looking for religious significance not in this world but in the world to come, liturgical Protestantism lowers the stakes for public life while still affirming politics’ divinely ordained purpose. The public square loses some of its importance but retains its dignity. It is neither ultimately good nor inherently evil; politics becomes merely a divinely appointed means for restraining evil while the church as an institution goes about its holy calling. (footnotes omitted throughout)

    Hart suggests that Christians can participate in deliberations about the common good by using the language of natural law that focuses on restraining evil and fostering justice. The upshot is a politics of limited government as opposed to attempts to coerce virtue. Hart clearly has some libertarian sympathies, revealed by his discussion of the views of fundamentalist theologian J. Gresham Machen.

    [Machen] was particularly active in fighting legislation that undermined, in his view, family life and the legitimate authority of parents. In other words, Machen would appear to meet the religious right’s theological and political litmus tests. But he was keenly aware that religious liberty in the United States prohibited Christianity from providing the norms for public life. In fact, Machen ridiculed the hypocrisy of liberal Protestant churches that took pride in theological diversity while also supporting legislation aimed at achieving Anglo-American cultural homogeneity. Mainline Protestants were guilty of such duplicity precisely when they argued that religion was beneficial for community or public life. For example, Machen wrote, “there is the problem of the immigrants; great populations have found a place in our country; they do not speak our language or know our customs; and we do not know what to do with them.” So religion is “called in to help.” It is “thought to be necessary for a healthy community.” And in the process, Protestants “proceed against the immigrants now with a Bible in one hand and a club in the other offering them the blessings of liberty,” or what some called “Christian Americanization.” For Machen, the norms of America and the churches were necessarily distinct and to conflate them violated religious liberty.

    But Machen was even more concerned about what politicizing religion did to Christianity. In order to make religion relevant to public life, he argued, Protestants had turned to the Bible only for its ethics while ignoring almost completely its ultimate message about sin and grace. This was one of the reasons for Machen’s opposition to prayer and Bible reading in public schools. Aside from questions surrounding the separation of church and state, even more alarming was what this practice did to the gospel. “What could be more terrible,” he asked, “from the Christian point of view, than the reading of the Lord’s Prayer to non-Christian children as though they could use it without becoming Christians?” In effect, a politicized Christianity ends up being little more than moralism. “When any hope is held out to lost humanity from the so-called ethical portions of the Bible apart from its great redemptive core,” then, Machen concluded, “the Bible is represented as saying the direct opposite of what it really says.”

    He concludes:

    The lesson for the religious right should be obvious. The effort to bring religious values to bear on public life is similar to what Protestant modernists did seventy years ago when they advocated prayer and Bible reading in public schools, Prohibition, and a rating system for Hollywood’s movies. And like the Protestant establishment during the middle decades of the twentieth century, today’s advocates of public religion could presumably add greater dignity and decency to American society. But at what cost? What will happen to the non-evangelical citizens of the United States if they do not comply with evangelicalism’s moral code? Even more important, what will happen to faith once delivered to the saints that evangelicals are so eager to share? As difficult as it may be to find a common ethical platform for public life without the foundation of revealed religion, the difficulties on the other side are just as great, if not greater. To be sure, the desire to make Christianity relevant for public life does not automatically force someone to deny the virgin birth or the resurrection of Christ. Neither is it immediately obvious, however, what these articles of belief have to do with limited government, free markets, or family values. And so, a comprehensive biblical program for American society and politics turns out to be little more than the second table of the Ten Commandments, the ones having to do with love of neighbor. Loving neighbors is a good thing. But historic Christianity involves much more. The irony is that by reducing Christianity to its ethical teaching the religious right and its defenders could be making one of the greatest concessions to modern secular life imaginable. For that reason it may be better to scrap altogether the project of public or civil religion. In the case of Anglo-American Protestantism, such efforts have not worked out well either for the republic or for the churches.

    I think this offers a helpful alternative perspective (one that I’ve expressed sympathy for in the past – see for instance this overly long post) to the Christian Right vs. Christian Left mode of political discourse that seems to get the most attention. I think Hart would see a confusion of the two kingdoms when Christian Rightists want to use the Old Testament law as the basis of public morality, or when Isaiah’s eschatological vision is used by the Christian Left as a model for the welfare state. Also of interest is Hart’s emphasis on how the deemphasizing of the church as the locus of God’s saving action (through Word and Sacrament) in some low-church evangelicalism seems to go hand-in-hand with a kind of reforming zeal to transform society.

    However, one worry I have is whether the appeal to natural law or common justice will still carry any weight in as pluralistic a society as ours. Natural law itself is at this point a contested “thick” account of morality that competes with hedonistic utilitarianism and other philosophies of justice. Once we’ve banished such thick accounts of the good life from the public sphere, will what is left over be enough to sustain a viable society? Or do we end up with a society of “moral strangers” who have only the barest minimal commitments in common?

    Still, I think that any scheme of relating faith to politics has to reckon with pluralism. Even if you deplore the principles of Enlightenment liberalism, pluralism as a social fact isn’t going away anytime soon. And I do think Hart makes a good point when he says that the essence of the Gospel is obscured when it’s turned into a laundry list of political prescriptions.

  • A window into the mind of America

    As part of its tenth anniversary, Amazon has listed its top 25 authors in terms of sales during the course of its history.

    Here’s the list (I’ve bolded the authors I’ve read just to see how in tune with the zeitgeist I am – not very it appears):

    1. J.K. Rowling
    2. Spencer Johnson
    3. Nora Roberts
    4. Dan Brown
    5. Dr. Seuss
    6. John Grisham
    7. Stephen King
    8. J.R.R. Tolkien
    9. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins
    10. Jim Collins
    11. Phil McGraw
    12. Robert Atkins
    13. C.S. Lewis
    14. Mitch Albom
    15. Ken Blanchard
    16. James Patterson
    17. Stephen R. Covey
    18. Mary Pope Osborne
    19. Marcus Buckingham
    20. Lemony Snicket
    21. John C. Maxwell
    22. Janet Evanovich
    23. Robert T. Kiyosaki
    24. Arthur Agatston
    25. Tom Clancy

    (via Mere Comments)

  • Method to the madness?

    Very interesting interview with Robert Pape, University of Chicago political scientist and author of Dying to Win: The Logic of Suicide Terrorism:

    The American Conservative: Your new book, Dying to Win, has a subtitle: The Logic of Suicide Terrorism. Can you just tell us generally on what the book is based, what kind of research went into it, and what your findings were?

    Robert Pape: Over the past two years, I have collected the first complete database of every suicide-terrorist attack around the world from 1980 to early 2004. This research is conducted not only in English but also in native-language sources—Arabic, Hebrew, Russian, and Tamil, and others—so that we can gather information not only from newspapers but also from products from the terrorist community. The terrorists are often quite proud of what they do in their local communities, and they produce albums and all kinds of other information that can be very helpful to understand suicide-terrorist attacks.

    This wealth of information creates a new picture about what is motivating suicide terrorism. Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated with suicide terrorism as many people think. The world leader in suicide terrorism is a group that you may not be familiar with: the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.

    This is a Marxist group, a completely secular group that draws from the Hindu families of the Tamil regions of the country. They invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the suicide vest from the Tamil Tigers.

    TAC: So if Islamic fundamentalism is not necessarily a key variable behind these groups, what is?

    RP: The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign—over 95 percent of all the incidents—has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw.

    TAC: That would seem to run contrary to a view that one heard during the American election campaign, put forth by people who favor Bush’s policy. That is, we need to fight the terrorists over there, so we don’t have to fight them here.

    RP: Since suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation and not Islamic fundamentalism, the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies over there, if you would, is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists coming at us.

    Since 1990, the United States has stationed tens of thousands of ground troops on the Arabian Peninsula, and that is the main mobilization appeal of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda. People who make the argument that it is a good thing to have them attacking us over there are missing that suicide terrorism is not a supply-limited phenomenon where there are just a few hundred around the world willing to do it because they are religious fanatics. It is a demand-driven phenomenon. That is, it is driven by the presence of foreign forces on the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. The operation in Iraq has stimulated suicide terrorism and has given suicide terrorism a new lease on life.

    More here.

  • Bono on Karma vs. Grace and Jesus the nutcase

    Here’s an excerpt from the book Bono in Conversation (via Bunnie Diehl):

    Assayas: Appalling things seem to happen when people become religious at too early an age or when their experience of life is nonexistent. Don’t you think?

    Bono: Zealots often have no love for the world. They’re just getting through it to the next one. It’s a favorite topic. It’s the old cliché: “Eat shit now, pie in the sky when you die.” But I take Christ at his word: “On Earth as it is in Heaven.” As to the first part of your question, in my experience, the older you get, the less chance you have to transform your life, the less open you are to love in a challenging way. You tend towards love that’s more comforting and safe.

    Assayas: As I told you, I think I am beginning to understand religion because I have started acting and thinking like a father. What do you make of that?

    Bono: Yes, I think that’s normal. It’s a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the Universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma.

    Assayas: I haven’t heard you talk about that.

    Bono: I really believe we’ve moved out of the realm of Karma into one of Grace.

    Assayas: Well, that doesn’t make it clearer for me.

    Bono: You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics—in physical laws—every action is met by an equal or an opposite one. It’s clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the Universe. I’m absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that “as you reap, so will you sow” stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff.

    Assayas: I’d be interested to hear that.

    Bono: That’s between me and God. But I’d be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge. I’d be in deep shit. It doesn’t excuse my mistakes, but I’m holding out for Grace. I’m holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don’t have to depend on my own religiosity.

    Assayas: The son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could believe in that.

    Bono: But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that God says: Look, you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are, to selfishness, and there’s mortality as part of your very sinful nature, and let’s face it, you’re not living a very good life, are you? There are consequences to actions. The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That’s the point. It should keep us humbled… It’s not our owngood works that get us through the gates of Heaven.

    Assayas: That’s a great idea, no denying it. Such great hope is wonderful, even though it’s close to lunacy , in my view. Christ has his rank among the world’sgreat thinkers. But Son of God, isn’t that farfetched?

    Bono: No, it’s not farfetched to me. Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: he was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn’t allow you that. He doesn’t let you off that hook. Christ says, No. I’m not saying I’m a teacher, don’t call me teacher. I’m not saying I’m a prophet. I’m saying: “I’m the Messiah.” I’m saying: “I am God incarnate.” And people say: No, no, please, just be a prophet. A prophet we can take. You’re a bit eccentric. We’ve had John the Baptist eating locusts and wild honey, we can handle that. But don’t mention the “M” word! Because, you know, we’re gonna have to crucify you. And he goes: No, no, I know you’re expecting me to come back with an army and set you free from these creeps, but actually I am the Messiah. At this point, everyone starts staring at their shoes, and says: Oh, my God, he gonna keep saying this. So what you’re left with is either Christ was who He said He was—the Messiah—or a complete nutcase. I mean, we’re talking nutcase on the level of Charles Manson. This man was like some of the people we’ve been talking about earlier. This man was strapping himself to a bomb, and had King of the Jews” on his head, and was they were putting him up on the Cross, was going: OK, martyrdom, here we go. Bring on the pain! I can take it. I’m not joking here. The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me that’s farfetched…

    I detect in that last bit the influence of C.S. Lewis’ famous “trilemma argument”:

    I am trying to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I am ready to accept Jesus as the great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on a level with the man who says he is a boiled egg – or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. (from Mere Christianity)

  • George Will(!) on factory farming

    Will discusses Matthew Scully’s essay “Fear Factories” (via Marcus).

    The rhetoric of animal “rights” is ill-conceived. The starting point, says Scully, should be with our obligations—the requirements for living with integrity. In defining them, some facts are pertinent, facts about animals’ emotional capacities and their experience of pain and happiness. Such facts refute what conservatives deplore—moral relativism. They do because they demand a certain reaction and evoke it in good people, who are good because they consistently respect the objective value of fellow creatures.

    […]

    Animal suffering on a vast scale should, he says, be a serious issue of public policy. He does not want to take away your BLT; he does not propose to end livestock farming. He does propose a Humane Farming Act to apply to corporate farmers the elementary standards of animal husbandry and veterinary ethics: “We cannot just take from these creatures, we must give them something in return. We owe them a merciful death, and we owe them a merciful life.”

    Says who? Well, Scully replies, those who understand “Judeo-Christian morality, whose whole logic is one of gracious condescension, or the proud learning to be humble, the higher serving the lower, and the strong protecting the weak.”

  • The double album – a blight on rock?

    I’ve never quite been able to make up my mind whether the Clash’s London Calling is truly one of the greatest rock albums ever, or if it just misses being so by overreaching a bit. I mean, you’ve got, what, twelve songs in a row that are just killer, but once you get toward the end things start to get a bit threadbare, don’t they? Does anyone think “Lover’s Rock”, for instance, is a great song?

    Maybe the double album is something to be avoided altogether? I have a hard time thinking of anyone who’s pulled it off sucessfully. Over the Rhine, who I love, didn’t quite do it with their Ohio – but I think you could’ve culled one really good album from that. By contrast, this year’s Drunkard’s Prayer has no filler whatsoever (though perhaps the extended saxaphone solo on “Little did I know” I could’ve done without).

    But I’ll be happy to take nominations for double albums that are putative counterexamples to my thesis (and, no, the White Album doesn’t cut it either).

  • Here they blog – they can do no other

    I’ve never gone out of my way to “brand” myself as a “Lutheran blogger.” For starters, my Lutheran identity isn’t rooted very deeply, having been attending Lutheran churches for only about four and a half years. Secondly, my “religious identity,” such as it is, has been formed by a lot of non-Lutheran influences – mainly Catholic and Anglican I suppose, though I have been deeply impressed recently by reading some of Gerhard Forde’s works, as well as the classic Gritsch & Jenson book on Lutheranism. And I can hardly think of a finer exposition of evangelical (in the continental sense) Christianity than Luther’s On Christian Liberty. Thirdly, I never wanted this blog to be narrowly theological, since I am, at best, a dilettante.

    My point being that while I may not be a Lutheran blogger as such, there are plenty of fine ones out there (though they may not all care to be pigeonholed as such either). Not all of these have made it on to the much-coveted VI blogroll (ha!), but they’re all worth sampling:

  • Some thoughts on terrorism

    For some time now the loudest voices in the debate over how best to respond to the threat of terrorism have tended to be on the extremes. On the one hand, the Bush administration and most conservatives have taken the general line that the terrorists are simply evil nihilists who have no discernible political goals. On the other hand, the far left tends to see terrorism as an understandable (if not justified) response by the poor and downtrodden to injustices perpetrated by the U.S. in the Middle East and elsewhere.

    I personally don’t completely buy either of these arguments, though I think there are elements of truth in both.

    I believe that President Bush’s view that terrorists are merely evil people who hate freedom is overly simplistic, but so is, I suspect, the view that the terrorists are simply desperate people responding to American malevolence. While that is no doubt true in part, it downplays the role that Islamism as an ideology plays in all this (not to mention good old-fashioned original sin!).

    Al-Qaeda and their ilk aren’t simply “anti-colonialists in a hurry” or some such. They have a (deeply repellent) vision of what they want their societies to be which is twisted and mixed-up with a kind of Arab nationalism all coupled with some legitimate greviances. For instance, they don’t just want an end to injustices against Palestinians, they want the Middle East cleansed of “Jews and Crusaders.” The fact that many of the actual terrorists have not, in fact, been desperately poor people but rather educated and relatively affluent is telling, I think. (For more on the roots of Islamism I would recommend the book Terror and Liberalism by Paul Berman. Berman thinks that Islamism is actually an Islamic mutation of European fascism.)

    That said, I still think the best approach is patient law enforcement work to ferret out and disable terrorist cells, combined with military strikes only when necessary (for instance, I would judge Afghanistan to have been a justifiable war, but not Iraq) and a reduction of our presence in the Middle East, where we have, in fact, been guilty of wrong doing.

  • Straight talk on terrorism

    Here’s an interview with political scientist John Mueller that is free of much of the cant we tend to hear from both right and left.

    Some samples:

    Reason: You were opposed to the invasion of Iraq. All day today we’ve seen ghoulish opportunists on both sides of that debate making the claim that this proves their own view of U.S. policy. Is there any real conclusion we can draw from these attacks?

    JM: In one sense it’s going to help Bush because it supports his argument that terrorism is still out there. On the other hand it undercuts the argument that the reason there haven’t been any terror attacks in the U.S. is because the terrorists are all tied down in Iraq. I don’t know that anybody has made that argument officially, or if Bush himself has made that argument, but it’s certainly been around. And Bush has implied it by saying Iraq is the central arena in the fight against terrorism. But this clearly wipes out that argument, which wasn’t a particularly good argument in the first place.

    […]

    Reason: In your book The Remnants of War you see war as being increasingly de-normalized since the 18th century. How do attacks like these fit into that pattern?

    JM: They’re not war; they’re terrorism. That’s why we call them terrorism. Crime will always be here, and so will terrorism. There will always be some nutcase with a bomb or some chemicals like the Unabomber. So when it’s really small like that, we tend to call it terrorism rather than war. When it gets large enough or sustained enough as in Iraq we tend to use phrases like guerilla war or unconventional war. Sporadic cases like this I don’t consider war.

    Reason: 9/11 was pretty large and spectacular, and had a massive body count. By that definition, shouldn’t it count as an act of war?

    JM: Yeah, you can make that case. The people who do the accounting had a lot of trouble with this and decided to call it a war. The usual threshold is about 1,000 battle deaths. That would obviously pass in this case. That attack was an outlier; there haven’t been any other terrorist attacks remotely that destructive, including today’s. But yes, quantifying that is a messy thing. I’m inclined not to think of 9/11 as war, not because of the body count but because it has to be a large enough group and has to be sustained. And once a year doesn’t count as sustained. I don’t want to downplay the significance of 9/11; I’m just disinclined to call it a war. But I can see how you might.

    […]

    Reason: Are there any further civil society implications of an attack like today’s, especially in the case of London, which is famously loaded with surveillance cameras that apparently didn’t do much to prevent these attacks?

    JM: They can’t prevent them, but they may be helpful in trying to identify what happened and who’s responsible. Even on a tragic day like this, the number of people who died is still pretty small compared to how many people are dying in automobile accidents. I don’t want to downplay the tragedy, but you simply can’t guarantee that that won’t happen. You can’t ensure the safety of every train, every bus, every taxicab, every moped, any more than you can guarantee you’ll never be mugged walking down the street. If they’re cost-effective, I’m in favor of measures that reduce the danger; but I’m wary of ones that are either counterproductive or more damaging than what’s been inflicted by the terrorists.

    Reason: Short of further hot-war reactions, what is the proper way to bring the war to the terrorists rather than always being on the defensive?

    JM: Well we’re always on the defensive with crime, right? Police try to catch criminals and deal with them, and we try to have some preventive measures, but unless the amount of destruction gets massively greater, it can be dealt with and absorbed. In the case of the Lockerbie bombing, we didn’t retaliate against anybody; we tried to go after the people who did it, and apparently were successful. And the same thing with the bombing in Spain, which is more directly relevant; they simply went after the people who did it, and apparently got them. And that seems to have satisfied people. They’re not happy about the tragedy, but the fact that you didn’t bash anybody with cruise missiles doesn’t seem to bother people.

    Reason: But a crime-fighting approach to terrorism is an electoral loser in the United States. John Kerry got clobbered under this argument that after 9/11 he would have dispatched an army of lawyers rather than an army of soldiers. How do you make that approach politically palatable?

    JM: Well you can try and make your rhetoric stronger than the other guy’s. But after the USS Cole was bombed, the real effort was to figure out who did it. Same thing with Lockerbie. During the Reagan Administration there were a bunch of terrorist activities that they didn’t do anything about except try to catch the people responsible. We haven’t done anything militarily about the Bali bombing. And after the first World Trade Center attack the reaction was really a police reaction. And nobody’s running around saying we should have done something else.

    Reason: But they are. It’s a very common analysis that 9/11 happened because the U.S.—going back to the Rushdie case or the Beirut bombing or the Iranian hostage crisis—did not take a stronger line. And bin Laden has various quotes about American cowardice that seem to support that analysis.

    JM: But a reaction can be counterproductive. And one of the things terrorists want is an overreaction. You haven’t seen that kind of reaction over the anthrax attacks. There’s been no demand that we attack Dublin or bomb a factory in Mozambique or anything like that. All they’re trying to do is catch the guy who did it, so far without success, and it doesn’t seem that anybody’s out marching in the streets over that.

    In the case of Afghanistan there was a target, a place you could go. It’s extremely unlikely we’ll see many cases like that, including in the London case. What can we bomb? There’s no target, so what you’re left with is police work.

    Reason: What do you make of the fact that the U.S. has, with some exceptions, been mostly free from major terror attacks since 9/11?

    JM: The question is whether the terrorists exist in the United States. The FBI has not been able to find a single true terrorist cell in the U.S. So you get the head of the FBI saying that he’s really bothered by the things we’re not seeing. That’s Descartes updated: I think therefore they are.

    Clearly it’s not the case that every single terrorist is so busy over in Iraq that they can’t bomb Brooklyn. But terrorism is a very rare thing that mostly doesn’t do much damage. 9/11 is obviously an exception to that. But the total number of people killed by international terrorism is small. So it’s not that common a thing in many respects.

    Reason: How would you assess the current state of the war on terror, both on President Bush’s terms and according to your own thesis of war’s increasing obsolescence?

    JM: In general it’s going pretty well. After 9/11 there was this big increase in cooperation among states. The fact that terrorists have been bombing places like Saudi Arabia means that every state sees them as a danger. So you’re not seeing much of the old-fashioned state-sponsored terrorism. The cooperation is imperfect, but a lot better than it was. It’s not clear how massive al Qaeda really is. Many people argue it’s not really an organization but just a movement. Five different websites have now claimed they did the London bombing, and all of them claim they’re connected to al Qaeda. Maybe they are mentally, but it’s hard to imagine they are in any organizational sense.

    So I think it’s in pretty good shape. But the crime rate is also pretty good. That doesn’t mean crime doesn’t happen.